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Why the Government Wants to Hijack Your 401(k)

It's bad enough that we've been forced to bail out Wall Street. But now the Obama administration is hatching plans to raid our retirement savings, too.

To say that I'm "outraged" doesn't come close to describing the emotions I experience every time I think about the government's latest hare-brained scheme.

According to widespread media reports, both the U.S. Treasury Department and the Department of Labor plan are planning to stage a public-comment period before implementing regulations that would require U.S. savers to invest portions of their 401(k) savings plans and Individual Retirement Accounts (IRAs) into annuities or other "steady" payment streams backed by U.S. government bonds.

Folks, there's only one reason these agencies would do such a thing – the nation's creditors think that U.S. government bonds are a bad bet and don't want to buy them anymore. So like a grifter who's down to his last dollar, the administration is hoping to get its hands on our hard-earned savings before the American people realize they've had the wool pulled over their eyes … once again.

It's easy to understand why.

Facing a $14 trillion fiscal hangover, the Treasury can no longer count countries such as Japan and China to be dependable buyers of U.S. government debt. Not only have those nations dramatically reduced their purchasing of U.S. bonds, most of our largest creditors are now actively diversifying their reserves away from greenback-based investments in favor of other reliable stores of value – like oil, gold and other commodities.

This growing reluctance couldn't come at a worse time. Just yesterday (Tuesday), in fact, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that the U.S. budget deficit would hit $1.35 trillion this year. And that's not the only shortfall the Treasury has to address. The U.S. Federal Reserve is supposed to stop buying Treasury bonds for its asset portfolio, a program the central bank put in place last year.

The upshot: The Obama administration has to find other ways sell government debt – without raising interest rates, a move that would almost certainly jeopardize the country's super-weak economic recovery.

Facing an uphill battle and increasingly skeptical buyers, the government is changing tactics and targeting the biggest pile of money available as a means of dealing with its fiscal follies – the $3.6 trillion sitting in U.S. retirement plans, including 401(k) plans.

The way I see it, the Obama administration can see the financial train wreck that's going to occur. So it's rushing to crack open the safe that holds our retirement money before anyone realizes that they've been robbed.

And if this plan becomes reality, that's just what it will be – robbery. American retail investors didn't sign up for the financial-crisis roller-coaster ride we've been on since 2008. We didn't approve the nation's five-fold increase in lending capacity. And we certainly didn't volunteer to help pay down a national debt that's doubled.

Few people realize that the federal government spent an estimated $17,000 to $25,000 per U.S. household in 2009 (the final figures haven't been calculated, yet). But that's no surprise: "We the people" didn't approve it.

At a point where it's spending money like a drunken sailor, Washington seems more interested in appropriating and redistributing our retirement savings than it is in fixing a system that's badly broken. If you add in all the stimulus spending that the taxpayers must now repay, the average government-agency-spending tab has zoomed more than 50% in the last couple of years. That's right – 50%.

So it's only logical that the administration would go after our 401(k) and IRA savings plans.

Disgusting, but logical.

Here's how the argument is likely to be framed.

The system we presently have in place is what's commonly called a "defined contribution plan." Under such a plan, the benefits we enjoy during retirement aren't determined in advance. Instead, those benefits are determined by how much money we contribute while working, and by the performance of the investments that we choose. The 401(k) is almost exclusively a defined contribution plan.

Years ago, Americans depended more upon "defined benefit plans" that promised a steady stream of income at a future date – with the actual amounts determined by our years of service or our earnings history. Old-fashioned company pension plans and even U.S. Social Security are examples of defined benefit plans.

By laying claim to our retirement assets in exchange for 30-year Treasury bonds, annuities or other payout streams, the government will try to persuade us that we're not capable of managing our own money, that the stock market is too risky a place for most Americans, and that we need Big Brother to hold our hands and protect our futures.

What we need, the administration is going to tell us, is a defined benefit plan.

So expect a big snow job. But here's the problem.

Defined benefit plans are great only as long as they are well funded. Unfortunately, most aren't.

In fact, according to various studies, pension funds could already be underfunded by as much as $5.3 trillion. Add that to the $14 trillion we've already got on the table and we're talking a staggering $19.3 trillion – and that's with no escalators, no cost-of-living adjustments and no interest-rate increases. And that's assuming we don't need another round of stimulus.

Here's what the government isn't going to tell you. When pension funds transition from defined contribution plans to defined benefit plans, the only backing they have is the underlying assets themselves and the company or entity that's responsible for the plans – which in this case would be the U.S. government.

If the prospects of your entire future being placed in the hands of the federal government doesn't scare the daylights out of you after all we've experienced so far, I suspect that nothing will.

Our elected leaders, appointed government guardians, and Wall Street have together demonstrated a total inability to manage what they already control. There's no reason on the planet why they should be allowed to get their hands on our hard-won savings. All that will do is punish the thrifty, disciplined and far-sighted investor, while rewarding – or at the very least protecting – the inept politicians and career bureaucrats who allowed this crisis to occur in the first place.

By backing their plan with 30-year Treasuries, government backers of this plan are betting that you and I won't notice that the trouble with annuities and long bonds is that they tend to get annihilated by inflation. That's why even the most jaded professionals will tell you that investing in such instruments right now when interest rates are being artificially held down near 0.00% is bad juju: Interest rates have only one direction to travel – up, which tends to crush bond prices.

Right now, Americans are apparently smarter than the administration believes. In fact, a survey by the Investment Company Institute found that more than 70% of all households disagreed with the idea of requiring a retiree to buy an annuity with a portion of their assets. And it didn't matter whether the annuity was offered by an insurance company or by the government.

Let's hope that the full-court press that the administration is getting ready to deploy doesn't snow American investors. If the government succeeds, we'll look back and see that they pulled a pretty slick trick to get our support.

Unfortunately, it won't be the last trick they play with our retirement money. That last trick will come after they have control of our savings – when they make our retirements disappear.

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About the Author

Keith Fitz-Gerald has been the Chief Investment Strategist for the Money Morning team since 2007. He's a seasoned market analyst with decades of experience, and a highly accurate track record. Keith regularly travels the world in search of investment opportunities others don't yet see or understand. In addition to heading The Money Map Report, Keith runs High Velocity Profits, which aims to get in, target gains, and get out clean. In his weekly Total Wealth, Keith has broken down his 30-plus years of success into three parts: Trends, Risk Assessment, and Tactics – meaning the exact techniques for making money. Sign up is free at

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  1. Dean Held | January 27, 2010

    Thats fine, info. But how about telling us how to combat this rip off.
    where should we put our money now? Should we convert to roth IRA's, or what?

    • Bonnie Cameron | January 27, 2010

      The only way I know of to combat this devastation is to place your money in a whole-life insurance policy that will allow you to build cash at a guaranteed rate. In the future you can remove funds tax-free; take tax-free "loans" out–from yourself to yourself– as monthly or quarterly payments as retirement income. The money coming out is tax-free, the growth in the account is tax-free, and when you pass on the rest of the money will almost always pass on to your beneficiaries tax-free. The government does not regulate life insurance policies. DON"T remind them of that!

      • Kevin Rust | December 12, 2012

        Bonnie, I agree with you, but if the government can take over our 401k/IRA, I'm sure insurance policies won't be far behind. As Thomas Jefferson said, A government big enough to provide for you is a government big enough to take from you. My true thoughts…people in this country will not stand for this type of action, of course our government will sugar coat it and many people will believe what the government tells them, but the ones that don't will revolt against our government. I know what side I'll be on….do you? :-)

    • Marian Garner | January 27, 2010

      Please advise regarding where to put IRA funds…..should be convert to roth IRA"S or what………

    • lawrence | January 27, 2010

      Just an opinion. The fact, however, is that the US is totally, hopelessly bankrupt, running on the empty tank of printing money and this govenment, controlled by the bankers, will do anything to keep their scam going. I suggest getting as much of your money out of every investment, paying the penalties, and getting it under you personal control, in your own vault or safe. I suggest, too, buying physical gold and silver (absolutely not any form of paper ownership… mining shares, ETFs, etc). Even better, get some out of the country. Consider, for example, GoldMoney or BullionVault.

      • Mrs. Right | November 29, 2012

        Yes, you can store it in Canada, which is accessible if you're a US citizen. It's legal, you just have to report it. Investing in foreign currency would be a good idea as well, considering the dollar soon will not be worth the cotton it's printed on.

    • me | February 1, 2013

      stand up and revolt

    • John Durango | November 4, 2015

      cash out your 401 NOW TODAY!

  2. Esten Spears | January 27, 2010

    This subject is of extreme importance to me! I'm hoping the financial writers will warn me in enough time to evacuate my IRA before gov't confiscation. Obviously I don't want to do it because of Tax consequences unless a forced confiscation is iminent. I have been told the choice of a gov't annuity will be optional but I am skeptical of that since it wouldn't get the gov't the amount of funds desired.

  3. Mark Tisch | January 27, 2010

    Normally I agree with you, Keith. But I think there is some merit to the idea – a lot of merit. Wall Street has been jacking us around since the 401K became popular. It has given them plenty of money to play with – gambling with other people's money. I have been thinking about yanking my own 401K funds and putting them in community banks (IRA's). Investing in our own government isn't a bad idea either. It would pay interest to Americans instead of to China, Japan, and India. I realize that an excessive reduction of the flow of funds to Wall Street would hinder the economy. But the inflated PE ratios that we often see are evidence of too much money chasing too little in actual production. I believe the idea is worth investigating.

    • SGW | January 27, 2010

      There is NO MERIT to the government forcing an option on us. If the government wants to create a voluntary option, that's fine. Citizens need to be free to choose their investments! And yes some will choose poorly – that happens in free markets.

    • Anonymous Bastard | January 27, 2010


      And chances are that if you're slowly changing your investments over time that you're already shifting some of your investments in to government bonds anyway.

      Wake up sheeple – this is the Republican fear machine at work!

      • Arley | January 27, 2010

        Dear Anonymous Bastard……….(or perhaps we ought to be more formal.)…..Dear Mr or Mrs. or Ms Bastard,

        Point #1: If you think this is the "Republican Fear Machine" at work that probably means you are much in support of the potential Administrations plan discussed above. In that event, who is it now that is demonstrating Ovine behavior??? Why……..I guess it would have to be you!!!!

        Point #2: Question, actually = Where have you been all your life??

    • RF | January 27, 2010

      Another brain dead lib drone. Did you even read the article you clueless idiot? You want to give this federal government control of your 401k? Go ahead fool. When you come to my door asking for money you're gonna get a gun barrel in your face…

      • Bright Lib | January 28, 2010

        Uh, yeah so you, RF, must be one of those repub drones, trying to play off some kind of fear mongering idiocy while pretending to have good moral standards under the Christian faith. I don't think Jesus would have ever put a "gun barrel" in the face of anyone in need. Good thing that this whole subject is a blatant and nonsensical lie to strike fear into people who know no better than to beleive everything they read.

        Try the hard route… educating yourselves! Look it up on non-partisan and fact based websites. This whole thing is a pile!

        • Kevin | December 12, 2012

          I suppose you would call a thief just someone in need?? Wow, can get your address please, I'm in need lol.

    • Mike | September 24, 2011

      Wow…spoken like a true sheeple. Maybe they can sell you a bridge in Brooklyn for your 401K proceeds.

  4. dave | January 27, 2010

    So what the heck are we suppose to do. Sell out on our 401K's?? Cash them IN???? Take a huge 40% lost to pay those taxes. If you present a problem why not a answer.

    • Adolf | January 27, 2010

      Yes, that's exactly what we have to do. Then, protect the rest against inflation.

  5. dave | January 27, 2010

    I can definitely see this happening though.

  6. john aversano | January 27, 2010 they are trying to get our 401k's…so it would be a positive if you told people to
    contact their Representatives & Congressmen to tell them HELL NO !!

  7. Ray Kleiner | January 27, 2010

    For a moment I thought I was reading about Argentina! The great USA seems to be going south in more ways than one.

  8. Jay Karsten | January 27, 2010


    What does a guy like me do now? My wife and I have a combined income of 80,000. We live way below our means. Our only debt is the 52000 we owe on the house. My interest rate is 4.85%. I suggested to my financial planner that instead of sending her 20% of our money to invest that I pay off the house. I have 10yrs left on the mortgage but could pay it off in 3.5yrs. She's against it. Of course because she doesn't make as much money. I have real concerns about how the market will be in the future much less this country. I'm 45 and the job I'm in has a normal retirement age of 53. I've invested over the last 20yrs and I would have to guess my total return has averaged less than 2% per year. Not sure what to do any suggestions? The worst thing is that I'm starting to think of what country to move to after I retire. I would have never guessed in a million years that I would ever say that.

    • Mike B. | January 27, 2010

      There is no one answer to your question. However, consider the following:

      1. Can you invest at a yield greater than your mortgage rate? If not, pay down your mortgage. (I assume you nitemize your tax deductions.)There are some high quality stocks that pay a 4% dividend and grow the dividends over time as well as some mutual funds. You are young enough that you can handle some stock market fluctuations, but only if you can sleep at night when the market declines.

      2. Do you have a rainy day fund? If not, start one to cover bills if you lose your job or have a serious illness. If you have a reserve fund, see #1 above.

      3. Make some additional payments on your mortgage and the balance to investments. We will be facing higher inflation in two years and your mortgage rate is historically low.

      • Dave | January 27, 2010

        Buy some physical gold & silver. It will undoubtedly depreciate in the short term. But intermediate term, you will not be sorry. Also, couldn't hurt to buy a rifle and plenty of ammo.

    • Joe L | January 27, 2010

      To Jay K, and others,

      It is wise to get money out of 401K and IRAs and into other vehicles like Variable Life Insurance policies, ROTH IRAs , and Annuities. The Obama Admin is actually trying to do more fiscal good to its citizens. Ask yourself this…What happens when you retire and take your 401K and IRA money out? Are you taxed? Yes you are. With Var.Life products you can shelter excess monies TAX FREE. I do this for a living and it is a GREAT idea. If you would like to see examples write me anytime,

    • Chris | January 27, 2010

      I would say fire her if she doesn't comply with your wishes.
      I fired several so called finance planners. If they don't work for you, then can them.
      They are supposed to plan your success, not theirs.

  9. Jay Karsten | January 27, 2010

    Sorry Keith for botching your name. See I'm flustered

  10. Clark | January 27, 2010

    You say that the people did not approve the increase in the fed debt???….the thing is….we DID approve it. We've been electing big spending SOB's from both parties for decades (Bush Jr is the best example to date). When was the last time you heard any significant debate on the problems caused by the national debt? Other than a few "weirdoes" like Ron Paul and the Tea Party (I don't think they are weirdo but the RNC sure does), no one talks about it because no one thinks it is a problem. To think that the American people are not responsible for what their government does is just plain stupid. I know, I know, we live in an era where no body is responsible for their actions. The concept that we don't deserve the awful government we have is just another example of that belief.

  11. Kevin Beck | January 27, 2010

    If such an idea is proposed, I foresee that many investors in retirement plans (mainly IRA's, since these aren't connected to any employer) will find a way to withdraw their accounts, pay the early-withdrawl penalty and tax, and conduct much of their investing activities outside a retirement plan. And I think this time, the people will be smart enough to take action at the drop of the proposal instead of waiting until the law is imminent.

  12. Margot Young | January 27, 2010

    In a democracy the debt of the government is always the choice of the people. So, yes, we did agree to this mess. The spending spree and foreign borrowing began long before Obama and escallated after 911, with the full support of the people. The need to repay and maintain good credit is critical to pulling out of economic crisis and paying for a war. Did the author think we would not have to pay this debt back? Is there an alternative? Bad decisions (in my view) like deregulating Wall Street and engaging in war led to the debt, but it was the choice of the people at the time. Now we get a choice of how we repay, so is there an alternative better way to repay other than getting this economy going?

    • Thea | January 27, 2010

      have you ever heard of the Bilderbergs? Have your looked into exactly 'who' is pulling the financial strings of the 'entire globe'. THAT's whose sucking your money out. We don't elect anyone.. they make it look like that by actually providing the 'chosen candidates' for us. Their agenda is '1st' on any list of what to do about this country. Have you ever read Davie Iche? This goes way deeper than many American's think.. and its like an infection that will not get a cure. Didn't you ever wonder that no matter how hard a person worked, and how much better off with education he was told would get him that high paying job would be? Did you ever think that this rate of inflation is a a hidden story, to prevent the masses from ever , ever having enough to cover our means. I've lived for 60 years now, and I can definitely see how this has gone. And we are victims.. but not of our government, we are victims of this so called 'Hidden Government".. Please believe me.. this exists.. and they mean to take down any and all who are lowly, in favor of keeping 'their kind' (the filthy rich) well off and taken care of. That has 'always been their plan".. Trust your heart.. trust God, discern the truth.. it's all we have here. They've got us playing 'their' game.. to stop it, we must empower ourselves.
      Thank you,

      • DD | January 28, 2010

        Thea – Yes I agree with you that the likes of the Bilderberg Group (BG) are behind this. Most Gvts. are puppets to the BG.

        When I mention the BG to people, they look at me like I am nuts! Or they just plain don't want to know.

        People will realize at some point, but of course then it will be too late, but they only have themselves to blame. I try to understand all that is going on and try to work accordingly. I hope (which is a pretty useless word sometimes) that I get through this financially and without going under like so many you hear about.

        Anyhow, ignorance is bliss – or so they say.

    • Chris | January 27, 2010

      We, the minority, did call and/or write our congress critters and pleaded with them not to put us in debt. But to no avail they went on and voted for it. Well it is time to replace those bad critters with some responsible ones that will heed to our concerns and advice and vote that way.

      we say no to excessive spending and they better darn well vote against it or else.

      Clean out the house!

    • mttwinmom | January 27, 2010

      Did we vote on a war? 'Cause i don't remember that. I woulda DEFinitely voted in that one.

    • Ron | December 27, 2012

      The debt of this Gov't is NOT the choice of the people! We/I did not vote for Gov't over spending, politician's huge salaries and pensions, Gov't unwillingness to CUT spending, out of control subsistance programs, etc. These examples are NOT my choice and not the choice of most of Americans. The current deficite is here, SPENDING needs to be cut FIRST. Stealing a hard working person's retirement is wrong and illegal. Heavily taxing America is a temporary cash releif and only leads to an even weaker economy. Didn't we fight and win a war over this 236 years ago?

    • Clarence Brown | February 27, 2013

      We have a Democratic Representative Republic in Ameriac, not a Democracy

  13. Grace Wegman | January 27, 2010

    This plan is truly scary. Having been a Postal employee, a portion of my earnings was confiscated every payday by the govenrment as part of a pension plan. Had these funds been invested instead of used as operating budget, there would be a lot more in the kitty to ensure my future.
    However, don't lose sight of the fact that the previous 8 years set this deficit in motion. Obama is, in my opinion, a conscientious president, but even he is not capable of plunging our country into such an abysmal mess in the span of 12 months.
    I would prefer our elected representatives discard their pig-headed political posturing and work on a viable solution together.

  14. stephen | January 27, 2010

    the marxist have grown from communist=liberal=progressives=what is next? Still around 160 years trying to do damage to a free civil society by creating poverty.

  15. Bonnie Cameron | January 27, 2010

    The only way I know to counteract this devastation is to put your retirement monies in a whole-life insurance policy with a guaranteed interest rate. Currently we are paying between 4.25 and 5.5 %. You can never have a loss, as the policy has a guaranteed minimum. The money grows within the policy tax-free. You may remove cash from the policy tax-free. You can anuitize the policy and receive tax-free income for life. The remaining funds upon your death would pass tax-free to your beneficiaries. It is a win-win. DON"T remind the government that this is possible!!!

    • Dave | January 27, 2010

      Bonnie, The criminals in Washington will ultimately seize these funds by decree.

  16. Karl Stenqvist | January 27, 2010

    This country needs good paying jobs, silver backed dollar, pay off your mortgages, stop buying on credit whenever possible and save the silver backed dollars or the metal itself until the dollar is backed by silver or gold.

  17. lashay | January 27, 2010

    I don't understand why you're all shooting the messenger. He doesn't have to provide any alternatives, he isn't the all seeing guru! Be happy he's giving you the story. Get creative and think of your own way out, that's what you have a brain for!

    I do believe the people are responsible for this debt load also, although Washington is spending, Americans are too busy not missing Americans Idol over their KFC. Feeling as happy and entitled as ever. It makes me anticipate the collapse!

  18. PTS999 | January 27, 2010

    People have such short memories! Recall that a few years ago, Wall Street was trying to hijack Social Security funds and wanted those funds invested in the stock market? Were it not for a few smart congressmen/women who shut down this idea, these crooks on Wall Street would have had more public funds to squander and pay themselves additional amounts of massive bonuses! As for the initiative listed in Kith’s article, I have full trust and faith in our Government and have no issues with some of my retirement money invested in our own country's welfare. It is about time we stop this bickering and Government bashing. The country would be better served if instead, we get rid of the lobbyists – who at every turn are disrupting all initiatives of the Obama administration. Let us get rid of these investment banking crooks who in collusion with corporate CEO thieves are destroying our economy, our lives, our families for their short-term personal gains. The paper pushers of Wall Street together with their money creation from 'thin air' machines (CDOs and CDSs are one example) are detrimental to society as they create no value with their bare hands and labour. Get rid of them! In a recent survey of most successful American companies, most were privately owned and had no connections to Wall Street – no stocks, no dividends to report, yet they remained profitable, innovative and competitive. Also, they had the happiest employee base. So what do we need Wall Street for? They are simply there to bilk and sap billions of our 401 (k) and IRA money for their personal gains? I vote for supporting our own Government instead.

    • MARK HICKEY | January 27, 2010


    • Chris | January 27, 2010


      I have an idea….why don't we all just short Goldman Sachs stock and punish them in the process? It has been done before in history.

      Remember Vanderbuilt and the railroad stock?

      that will stop them from sucking eggs…

    • Carolyn Thompson | January 28, 2010

      Are you aware that Obama hosted a brain storming session at the White House with Lobbyist and CEO's? He says one thing and does another. Does he think we are stupid?

  19. Lee Bode | January 27, 2010

    Would a possible defense be to buy long term CD's for our IRA's, and 401(k)? If I buy a 10-year CD, could I still be forced to buy these annuities?
    I know, I lose either way because interest rates on cd's are almost zero. But at least I would retain my principle.

  20. don king | January 27, 2010

    Well the government has given us the tax-exempt 401k in the ist place. If it will help the country to require a percentage to go into super-secure gov't bonds, then I think it a GOOD IDEA. BELIEVE IN AMERICA !!

    • Craig M | January 28, 2010

      The dollar has lost 95%-97% of its purchasing power since the Federal Reserve was created in 1913. So lets believe in the US Constitution and American citizens. However, don't trust the Fed, Wall Street, Congress and the Administration.

  21. Jorge | January 27, 2010

    They did the same to us here in chile by the end of the eighties…so I asume this recipe was learned by some chicago boys in some of your Ivy leagues Universities or is a Tesis of a PHD…The US is by far the biggest DEBTOR in the world ever…and time is running short to pay the bill

  22. Mike De Master | January 27, 2010

    Wall Street bad, Federal Government Good. Or Wall Street good, Federal Government bad. Hmm… I kind of think they both are both good and bad. But… then again I personally don't want the Federal Government making me buy Government Bonds just like I don't want Wall Street making me buy their's either. How about if we get to choose and take personal responsibility for the outcome, good or bad!

  23. RefreshTheTree | January 27, 2010

    Our government is like a bloated tick sucking off of our collective jugular, it is time to stop the flow of money completely. 545 people are ruining a country with a population of over 300 million! There is no way to work a legitimate job and not pay taxes, but what you can do is claim way more than you actually are "entitled" to. No tax revolt needed. They are going to suck this country dry if we don't do something, and calling your rep or senator will NOT help, they do not work for us anymore. I have been very politically active for some time, and I have only ever gotten 1 real result. All we would need is 10% of our country's working population of 100 million to cut payment. It has to start somewhere, we need to downsize the heck out of this monster before they stop bothering with pretenses. Ten years from now they will be trying to pass a law saying they can come in and search your house and take anything of value in the name of the state.
    At the very least we need to prove our individual state sovereignty, and refuse to go along with laws like these. We as states are what gave the federal govn't power, and they are way outside their enumerated powers now, we have no requirement by our law to listen to them. They will tell you otherwise, but that is because if it were up to them the constitution wouldn't exist.

  24. No Tread Zone | January 27, 2010

    I can't believe how many of you say this is an OK idea. You are willing to give more money to fiscally irresponsible spendthrifts who have done nothiing for almost 25 years but spend more money than they can get their hands on! Now you want to let them get their hands on your personal retirement money, money you've been saving for years to cushion the blow of retirement? I am simply amazed…WAKE UP AMERICA

  25. Lyle | January 27, 2010

    Wow, that is an amazing diatribe by PTS999. Anyone who doesn't do the math may forget that the first year of the Obama administration quadrupled the debt of the last year of the Bush administration. The talk of who created this mess should focus on Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. The whole mess of sub-prime mortgages were crafted and built on their bully pulpit. Now to help clean up the incredible debt that the Obama administration is causing they want to pull an Argentina. Get your money out before they steal it!

  26. Daddy Paul | January 27, 2010

    This sounds a lot like the SS trust fund! Do you see the lock box?

  27. Curtis | January 27, 2010

    Thanks Keith for bringing this issue up. It has been percolating for over a year and the government appears to be brazenly moving toward action as the reaction from the people has been muted at best. I often wonder what it will take for people to finally get energized to start demanding change and set our country back on to a stable financial path. Judging from the responses of the people who are asking for direction while others write not to bother contacting your representatives, it appears that this concept will likely come to fruition.

    It is unbelievable to me that people don't know what to do. Or that someone would actually say not to bother speaking up. It is a sad state of affairs as we the people are getting exactly what we have coming to us.

    Let's start with some basics. Call every representative you know. Write letters. Tell your friends and family to get their heads out of the sand as well and start being heard. Join the Tea party demonstrations. Find candidates that represent your interests. Contribute to the campaigns and groups that are trying to change what is going on. Fight! Don't just sit there!
    It is this apathy that has lead us to where we are. It is our fault that we are here. You can sit there and blame the Dems or Reps or all of them, but the reality is that WE PUT THESE PEOPLE IN OFFICE! It is time to remove them.

  28. BDem | January 27, 2010

    Let us not forget that the whole stinking economic mess we are in now was caused largely by deregulation going all the way back to Reagan. Anyone remember the S & L scandal and Neil Bush? Have you also forgotten that Clinton actually reduced the deficit while the supposed "whittle down government" Republican, Bush Jr., increased the deficit and escalated the deregulation trend? The crisis was not just caused by subprime loans but by the unregulated selling of derivatives.

    While I may disagree with some of the way the bailout has been carried out (with not enough conditions), I believe not bailing out the financial system would have caused a depression that would have made 1929 seem like a picnic. Most of the major economists from whatever political persuasion agree about that.

    As for government, I think the issue is not whether government is good or bad. After all, I very much appreciate maintenance of roads, the provision of security and educational facilities, and the regulation of food and drugs. Corporations are by nature a profit-making entities that do not have the mission of looking out for the public good. So the question to ask about government is whose interests are being served? In this respect I agree with PST900 about the power of corporate lobbyists. When they control congress, they do not do so to help the public.

    I haven't seen the wording of the proposed legislation on 401Ks so I reserve judgment.

    • Alex | January 27, 2010

      These people that think this government is doing something good really don't get it. They lie, plain and simple and tell you one thing but they really have another motive. Example: "I want to help protect your retirement savings so lets invest it in 30 year bonds." Forget the fact that they got us into this mess in the first place and now the foreign governments don't want to loan us any more money. These are the same bonds the foreign governments don't want anymore that they are proposing to stick us with. The worst investment right now is the 30 year treasury it is guaranteed to lose money. Interest rates are as low as they will go and that means the only direction is up. That's why they want our money because most Americans don't have a clue and they can sell the lie to you. These foreign governments are too smart for that. The people that think they will help "America" are disillusioned" You give them your money and when you get laid off you'll starve. Why don't they just fix social security since they put bonds in place of the money they took from us in those accounts also. You better wake up for yours and your childrens sake. They still have people believeing they did the right thing by bailing out the banks but the truth is they bailed their friends out they haven't fixed anything and the worst is yet to come. They haven't gotten us out of anything they just delayed it. The remark about 1929 being a picnic may be true but the point is your going to find out up close and personal. Commercial real estate and residental real estate are a long way from bottom and soon that will become apparent to all.

  29. Rod | January 27, 2010

    Can you quote some pending regulations or executive order to back up what you are saying here? From what I have read, it sounds more like Obama is going to require companies to allow the use of annunities in employee 401ks. NOT, that they have to invest their money in annuities. Many company 401k plans do not include annunities, and some retirees would rather put their money in an annuity verses constantly having to manage the ups and downs of the market.

  30. PTS999 | January 27, 2010

    To Mark H: On any given day, I would rather have an IOU from the Government than a worthless piece of papaer IOU from Wall Street (common stock of Enron, MCI/WorldCom, Nortel, GM, Madoff, Michel Milken, Tyco etc…etc….)
    To Lyle: Why does every economic issue boil down to Republican vs. Democrats. Right Vs. Left, Conservatives vs. Liberals? Our issue should be to attack the problem at its roots and resolve the problem to be able to move forward. The way I see it, it is the lobbyists and the greed of Wall Street and Corporate CEOs that are ruining our economy (in turn corrupting our politicinas and even our supreme court judges). The current administration is attempting to roue out this vermin and we should support these efforts – for the good of our country.

    • Alistair Sinclair | January 27, 2010

      PTS999 – I'm sorry, but your commentary is so ridiculous I'm sitting here laughing. The fact is, Govt. pretends to create a safe and sensible regulatory environment with oversight agencies. These agencies ALWAYS FAIL to DO THEIR JOB. Then you get an Obama, who villifies, demonizes and bashes everyone and everything when it's the Govt. that set up the playing field and made the rules to being with. The Govt. loosened the mortgage lending rules and provided easy money … you get a bubble, the private sector gets demonized, whoop-dee-doo … happens every time. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN YOUR GOVT ADMIT ANYTHING … of course not. The private sector has its stinkers to be sure, but the biggest stinkers are right in Congress and in the Federal Govt.

    • Chris | January 27, 2010

      Good point PTS999,

      Lobbyist are blood suckers…I told my candidate that is running for the US Senate to avoid at all cost the lobbyist, they are nothing but trouble and you don't need them…

  31. Wes Willis | January 27, 2010

    Malcolm Berko said that in 1995 Hillary Clinton tried an idea to tax 401(k) and IRA accounts at 15% per year. Of course you would not be able to use the retirement account to pay the tax so the first year tax charge could be huge. The idea never flew very far but it was proposed to pay for "enhanced social" programs the government would sponsor.

  32. JJ | January 27, 2010

    Reps blame Dems and Dems blame Reps and everyone blames the banks but this country is in a mess due to huge inefficient govt approved and caused by voters who are short term greedy and long term stupid.China is better off being run by a handful of intelligent people than is the U.S. by idiot voters.

    • Chris | January 27, 2010

      I'm with you JJ…

      We need smart, common sense voters out there voting not those stupid dumb ones..

  33. Paul Dueweke | January 27, 2010


    Does anybody out there really believe their SS reserves are safer in the SS Trust Fund than in corporate securities? The SS Trust Fund is held in special-issue, non-marketable government debt. This debt has absolutely zero value. You may be disgusted with Wall Street, as am I. But it has a long record of generally preserving financial value.

    In 1936, the Government was desperate for revenue. Because of the 25% unemployment rate, they couldn’t just raise taxes because of the lynchings that would have immediately followed. So they did what politicians always do when they need/want more money — which is always. They lied. Because of the emotion surrounding the Depression, Social Security CONTRIBUTIONS (they didn’t start calling them taxes until maybe twenty years ago or so) was an easy sell to a naive American public. They set up the cash flow so that the contributions would flow directly into the general budget and be secured by a special IOU which is unrelated to other Government debt instruments. Any politician with half a brain could calculate what their take would be, at least in the short run of a few years. What they probably never imagined was just how long the sting could be played. They would probably all have been surprised to find that nearly seventy years later, Social Security is still a tremendous revenue source for the Government. Thus it is one of the great American success stories in Government-revenue generation (aka, Government scams, which sounds redundant).

    During its first ten years (1937 to 1946), the SS surpluses increased Federal receipts by an average of 14%. This is what the politicians of the 30s expected. What they probably didn’t expect was the long-term payoff of their new tax fraud. During the Kennedy/Johnson administration (1961 to 1973), SS surpluses reduced the national borrowing needs by 14%, and during the Clinton administration (1993 to 2001), by 5%. Bush and Obama have continued to reap a windfall of 50 to 100 billion dollars every year to further assist their Government-growth agendas. By these measures, SS has been a tremendous boon to Big Government. Thousands of politicians over the last seventy years owe a great debt of gratitude to those in the thirties who pulled off this very successful deception.

    Could it have been just stupidity that Congress passed such an imbecilic, one-sided, big-money program that would swindle Americans out of a trillion dollars? And then continued to ignore the problem by refusing to make SS a funded program for over seventy years? Their contempt for their fiduciary responsibility should have put every member of Congress in prison today right next to Skilling and Madof.

    • geeholt | January 27, 2010

      To Paul Dueweke:
      Finally, a cohesive, thoughtful response! Thank YOU.

      To those who may support or tolerate this type of governmenal "activity": Bear in mind that the current crop of leaders use the "incentivizing" process to achieve their objectives; i.e., any program would INITIALLY be a) voluntary, b) incremental, and c) irreversable. If they could, they would also make it d) invisible.

      Also bear in mind that since Obama does not like insurance companies (putting it mildly), his minions are not promoting insurance company annuities, but U.S. govt. solutions (30 year bonds) that benefit the treasury and its insatiable thirst for funding.

      Look to Chile and Argentina for examples of this strategy in action, although the technique used on our "enlightened" populace will make the government "annuity" seem like an improvement over current plans in place, rather than a money grab. The large objective is as the author stated, replacing a diminishing stream of voluntary foreign lending with a forced domestic one.

      As Churchill once said: Fight while you still have a chance of winning with acceptable casualties, or face the possibility of fighting with no hope of winning, rather than live in slavery…(paraphrased).

    • Flatirons JR | January 27, 2010

      Did you leave out Nixon's name in the 1961-1973 administration so no Republicans would be named? This is not Repubs vs. Dems. It doesn't matter which party is in office.

      I agree with the sentiment here that implies we are responsible for our nation's debt. Most of us have to merely look in the mirror to see who is responsible. Everyone is against big govt, until their entitlement is impacted.

  34. Doug | January 27, 2010

    Maybe this idea isn't so bad afterall…

    Many successful investors preach the concept of asset-allocation. While I understand an organization like moneymorning, which enjoys success only through investor's interest in stocks is high, may suffer as more investors realize the importance of asset allocation vs. individual stock picks, this will help the average ill-informed investor. The idea that the govermnemt is demanding where we put our money in a defined contribution plan is sickening at first glance, but the idea that everyone will have more well-rounded portfolios is appealing. Furthermore, will this plan help to curb tax-increases? I'd much rather be forced to invest in government debt instead of being taxed through the roof…

  35. HAPPY | January 27, 2010

    Please keep us informed. The Gov't had their many chances-social security, post office, GM, bailout, wars, etc. The result has been a great failure. Why should we consider handling our heads(IRAs, 401K) to them this time.

  36. Artanion | January 27, 2010

    Great article and even greater responces

  37. Damian | January 27, 2010

    Two sides to this equation.

    1) Keith and his ilk would have a lot less to write about (and pitch us readers on) were it not for the roughly $15 Trillion US economy. Albeit a ponzi-type economy built almost entirely on the use of credit for over 50 years. With many in the global economy such as OPEC/Asia/Europe/Canada/South America/Mexico having used US consumption to grubsteak and exponentially build their own domestic economies in the past 50 years. As well as Wall St hoods and their bankster buddies.

    2) Now its time to pay the piper (s). But the bills are staggering and reaching a point where the Feds cannot borrow enough to keep the balls in the air with conventional methods. Such as one arm printing $ madly to buy the debt from the other arm. Given those who have been buying our Bonds to finance us are starting to feel they could be stiffed. Or repaid with devalued currency of questionable worth.

    Methinks long ago somewhere in the bowels, er offices of DC, they realized that when you owe your bankers mere millions its your problem. Owe them tens of trillions and its their problem.


    A) Nationalize the big banks and Wall Street tonight. Confiscate their Trillions in assets and fire all senior management tomorrow morning. Start over with a different game and new rules.

    B) All foreign creditors get ready for a haircut on your bonds. You prospered from our good times – you will pony up for the bad times. Which will eventually bring us all better times again. Otherwise you get ZERO.

    C) Eliminate professional bribers, er corporate lobbyists. Gonzo like the Dodo. Same for teleprompter speeches and all incumbents seeking reelection.

    D) No bailouts for any company regardless of size or function. Use the $ from A above to build a new age industrial economy to manufacture and export new technologies. New plants, new jobs and new business/technology incubators here in the USA.

    E) Partner up with emerging economies to build new trading blocks globally. The old lone ranger imperialistic days are gone and we all need to work together to use less, share more, build international relations, trade products/services/ideas – and STOP these insane wars.

    F) Write new rules for all politicans. They are there to serve at our pleasure.

    And oh – Ban baggy pants, hats worn sideways, loud music in cars, American Idol, 95% of whats on TV, overpaid showboat athletes, celebrityism, e-device overuse, most media sources, credit cards and too-big-to-fail banks, investment dealers and corporations.

    Now lets roll up the sleeves and rebuild our Country.

    • Piffin | January 30, 2010

      Your solutions are worse than the problems. I can't abide the thought of fascism in this country.

  38. Bill | January 27, 2010


    This is actually good news. Here's the thing–someone has to pay for all this mess. If the government confiscates 401k/IRA, then they'll most likely leave my gold alone!

    A second benefit is that since the baby boomers are the ones who caused most of the problems and the majority of net worth is wrapped up in that generation, it becomes poetic justice.


  39. Jimbo Stud | January 27, 2010

    The liberals have won the day and the future. The reality of massive wealth transfers of the past (and the massive destruction of wealth creation) and the reality that most of our citizenry will not give up their entitlements (leading to more opportunity cost) can only be ignored so long. We are a democracy and our demographics are changing rapidly. Cause and Effect. Cause and Effect.

  40. H. Craig Bradley | January 27, 2010


    Guess what, sportsfans, Senora Cristina Fernández de Kirchner of Argentina already confiscated all private pension accounts from Argentine citizens last year and incorporated them into the government's pension system(s). Anotherwords, spent them.

    So, the idea is not novel. What is new in the formally U.S.A. is how fast President Obama and Lenin's Millwrights* are moving to institute the "12 Planks of Communism". I would suggest it would be better to burn your assets (withdrawl all, with penalities) than let them fall into the Federal government's hands (enemy hands). If need be, "salt the earth" and take no prisoneers (as Rome once did to its enemies).

    *Lenin's Millwrights: Nicoli Lenin once said the way to destroy the Middle Class (Bouswazee) is to "grind them between the millstones of inflation and high taxes". I suggest the proper, constitutional response to such intents might be terrorism, albeit of a domestic, native variety (Patriot).

  41. H. Craig Bradley | January 27, 2010


    Guess what, sportsfans, Senora Cristina Fernández de Kirchner of Argentina already confiscated all private pension accounts from Argentine citizens last year and incorporated them into the government's pension system(s). Anotherwords, spent them.

    So, the idea is not novel. What is new in the formally U.S.A. is how fast President Obama and Lenin's Millwrights* are moving to institute the "12 Planks of Communism". I would suggest it would be better to burn your assets (withdrawl all, with penalities) than let them fall into the Federal government's hands (enemy hands). If need be, "salt the earth" and take no prisoneers (as Rome once did to its enemies).

    *Lenin's Millwrights: Nicoli Lenin once said the way to destroy the Middle Class (Bouswazee) is to "grind them between the millstones of inflation and high taxes". I suggest the proper, constitutional response to such intents might be terrorism, albeit of a domestic, native variety (Patriot).

  42. H. Craig Bradley | January 27, 2010


    A!Guess what, sportsfans, Senora Cristina Fernández de Kirchner of Argentina already confiscated all private pension accounts from Argentine citizens last year and incorporated them into the government's pension system(s). Anotherwords, spent them.

    So, the idea is not novel. What is new in the formally U.S.A. is how fast President Obama and Lenin's Millwrights* are moving to institute the "12 Planks of Communism". I would suggest it would be better to burn your assets (withdrawl all, with penalities) than let them fall into the Federal government's hands (enemy hands). If need be, "salt the earth" and take no prisoneers (as Rome once did to its enemies).

    *Lenin's Millwrights: Nicoli Lenin once said the way to destroy the Middle Class (Bouswazee) is to "grind them between the millstones of inflation and high taxes". I suggest the proper, constitutional response to such intents might be terrorism, albeit of a domestic, native variety (Patriot).

  43. sheriff | January 27, 2010

    Buy silver, prices are dipping now, should be a good investment. I do like annuities, fixed rate annutties have one thing going for them, they compund interest monthly,or quarterly. Fixed rate annuties at least increase in value each year. One annutiy I have compounded great over the last 13 years, compared to the 2 big stock market crashes this past decade. There is no free lunch in the stock market, as they say asset allocation, that includes annuities.

    • Piffin | January 30, 2010

      Annuities and insurance policies have little appeal to me – when they gain 3-7% gauranteed but inflation runs more than that, you are losing money. I don't want mine locked up, but under my control. Precious metals sector is the only solution I see

  44. Voir Dire | January 27, 2010

    To all of you posing the questions and posting commentary above, how many of you have REALLY been paying any attention to the Money Masters who pull the strings and our elites that they own lock, stock and barrel especially since this incredible forum known as the blogosphere restored our freedom of speech (something the American people have not had for at least 100 years because it's all owned and controlled by a remarkable oligarchy of six of the Money Masters' ethnic brethren? How many of you even KNOW this or have ever even cared that the entire Western media apparatus in concentrated in six, hard-core Zionist hands? How many of you sought to find out anything about the positions of the truly honorable Rep. Ron Paul during the 2008 elections and question what was all this "blathering" of his about the "unconstitutional, private banking cartel" better known as "The Federal Reserve", which this same media cabal, operating in concert, banned him from the staged debates and ensured he got ZILCH coverage as a Presidential candidate? And how many of you donated one penny much less a hundred bucks or so to his (freedom forum) internet-fueled candidacy? How many of you have been keeping these cretins/incumbents (the man who helped murder America, Ted Kennedy, was kept entrenched in power for 43 fucking years, you despicable Massachusetts' morons) in power for decades even as they steadily disempowered, dispossessed and disenfranchised you through insane immigration policies, Marxist "free-trade" treaties, and raped and pillaged the country merrily on their way towards their own posh, best-retirement-taxpayers'-money can buy? How many of you have ever taken any time to investigate the countless excellent videos your more concerned, alert, enlightened, and intelligent betters have been desperately creating with their technical expertise, posting everywhere on the internet and doing everything in their limited power to awaken their fellow brainwashed, slumbering, willfully stupid fellow Americans up to this vast criminal enterprise, the Federal Reserve? How many of you, over your lifetimes, have read important books or more importantly spend time reading books online since for the first time ever, book publishing is outside the purview of their mind-boggling, bone-chilling control? How many of you know that a provision of our very own Constitution, contains a provision (Article V) for overthrowing this whole, rotten, thieving, utterly corrupt federal Leviathan that makes us so miserable? You'd better believe the legal eagles and Vampires infesting our behemoth government know it and shudder at the thought that enough of its constituents might one day put it in motion.

    And a few of you have the gall to castigate this exemplary writer for putting together a powerful analysis identifying the last remaining plunder left to the Vampires and THEIR president/puppet elites' in Congress for not proffering forth any viable solutions. We (well, some of us…), the spat-upon American people, haven't been paying attention to this unspeakable, unfathomable treason for a long, long time. As the deliberately destroyed U.S. continues her imminent collapse and her long-suffering people breathe their last collective gasps, please go look in the mirror, my fellow beleaguered citizens: The problem is staring right back at you.

  45. Dapper Dan | January 27, 2010

    Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs), erroneously called dollars, are not Federal, not Reserve, and not Notes. They are accepted by the U.S. government for tax purposes and are otherwise only (broken) promises to pay, written on scraps of paper. When they double the number of FRNs in circulation, without doubling the wealth of this country, the value of each FRN is again cut in half, a.k.a. hyperinflation. Get out of FRNs! Hold tangible assets, including lots of consumeables (food, medicine, good whiskey, fuel, ammo) which will soon grow scarce and pricey.
    1. Remove wealth from FRN investment accounts (IRAs, 401ks, etc.)
    2. Buy REAL precious metals (not certificates) with proceeds. Gold is $1100/oz. Hide gold in small places.
    3. Pay the tax penalty on April 15th, 2011 ON A LOW FIXED INTEREST 5 YEAR IRS PAYBACK PLAN that costs you less than two ounces of gold/year, i.e. using future, cheaper dollars. Gold will be $1650/oz. on 4/1/2011, and exponentially heading for $5000/oz and beyond.
    4. Do not pay off fixed rate loans early. Invest funds today in gold, silver, etc., then make loan payments in the future with much cheaper dollars from sale of pricier metals.
    5. Empty Safe Deposit boxes today. They're next on insanity list.
    6. Become totally self-sufficient.

  46. Craig M | January 28, 2010

    Does anyone have the email addresses for Mark Irwin at Treasury and Phyllis Borzi at Dept of Labor? Would like to start a letter writing campaign now before the government proposal even comes out.

  47. sommers | January 28, 2010

    PTS999 and don king etc, are probably plants or maybe just socialistic.
    For those interested Ms. Alicia Munell who worked for Clinton in 1993 came up with a 15% seizure plan. Govt. to seize outright 15% of all retirement plans and 15% of all profits from these plans forever. Seized from the "fortunate" that had these plans to give to the "less furtunate" who had no plans. Clinton lost the congress in 94 and this was shelved.
    Now we have Teresa Ghilarducci picking up the ball. Her ideas are even worse.
    There is an excellent article today on "Lew" Entitled "The coming Obama retirement trap" by Ron Holland. It is a must read.

  48. Paul Pent | January 28, 2010

    In the state of Florida there is an easy way to avoid worrying about the Feds taking your 401(k) or IRA…1-888-687-7511…

  49. RJD | January 28, 2010

    Everyone should email their Congressman and Senator with this link and tell them to oppose this robbery. And they sould say that if they do not oppose this, you will work to defeat them in November.

  50. Ray Kleinsorge | January 28, 2010

    While it is true that people don't get to vote on this, it is NOT true that voters are not responsible. We the voters put these people in charge over ourselves and ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES !!!!! It's high time that the people of this country take voting seriously, get informed on the issues (and not just by the liberal main stream media), and vote on the issues that are important to this country's survival because the survival of this country as a free nation depends on it.

    • Dee Williams | January 29, 2010

      Please advise as to which liberal mainstream media you refer too? The One owned by the liberal NewsCorp or the Liberal General Electric or the Liberal Disney Corp or the far left wing Clear Channel? Oh, I'm sorry… you live in a different dimension… y'know the one full of Glen Beck paranoia…

  51. Freethinking | January 29, 2010

    While I need to see more of the plan to hijack the 401K, it is DOUBTFUL when it comes from the FIXnews channel…Anyhow, wouldnt' surprise me if the government decided to do that. What the hell you right wing was thinking when Bush proposed to give your money to Wall Street..I mean the taking money out of SSI and put in the INVESTMENT VEHICLES..Oh wait, that's when he give it to YOU guys…TEA party is just a bunch of hypocritical Republicans who SPENT like a drunken sailors in a sheep clothing. Where are those fiscal conservatives when the Republicans spent their ways? a Trillion tax cut spending in 2001….As far as I am concern, you all are just crooks like Bush and Obama..Republicans and Democrats

    • lori walton | January 31, 2010

      I am a conservative independent and a booster of the tea party movement. The tea party movement consists of dems, reps, and independents. It seems to me that it would qualify as non- partisan. Most of the tea party people are against growing debt, growing government, shrinking freedoms, and a president that wants to run our lives. It has been identified as the progressive movement and consists of dems and reps in congress. In November, people would be wise to check out who the progressives are before they vote. Americans have been asleep at the wheel too long because this movement has been building for quite a while. It is time to wake up and take note of where Obama is leading our government.

    • John Cooper | February 1, 2010

      Freethinking, your anything but !

      You need to see more of the plan ? If God himself was shoving down your throat, you wouldn’t see it !!!

      Bush this, Bush that … etc… that is all you “Progressives” do lets keep one thing in fact, one only Congress can send money this is 4th grade civics, now if this was all Bushs fault then answer me this, the Democrats took over both houses of congress in 2006 now the non-thinkers believe that the Democrats have been in-charge for a little over one year, if fact the spending arm of the goverement has been in-charge for 3 years, so when one hears that Bush mess-up our economy remember the Democrats have been in-charge they own it lock, stock and barrel.

      Please keeping gulping down the kool-aid thinking that the Tea party is just a bunch of hypocritical Republicans !!! cue dude, just don’t look at the 75% of independents of Mass who went to the right side !!! the one who know those tax-cuts took in money from increase tax revenues just like JFK did ! lean history it helps….

    • Del harton | February 1, 2010

      Socialism and communism go hand in hand with Obama. I am just a dummy that can balance my own check book and balance the Gov. check book also. Stop big Gov. first, to many Gov. jobs watching to many small working class. The big Gov. wolfs have eaten to many sheep and the sheep are now on the endangered list. Who's been watching the wolfs? Not the wolf pack. We have assumed for to long that after the election, those that were in were going to take care of us, fools we have been.
      Facts to consider. The "Council on Foreign Affairs and The "Tra-Lateral Group are pushing for ONE WORLD ORDER. When the Bilderburg Group (the wealthiest people in the world) along with the aforementioned sponsors get control, there will be new money printed for the "One World Order. The US Constitution will be gone. This is going on now. The Commies will have the world under control only after my death. The Democrats, have been in charge of the Congress far to long, they may not even know the outcome of they voting, many are attorneys that miss the common knowledge of the simple working stiff…. Keep in mind that there Republicans and Democrats in the groups above. DO NOT TRUST ANY GOV. BRANCH. I may suggest, STOP and or cash in the 401, hide the money, get the free things the Big Gov. promises when you show them your just a poor working stupid they want you to be. UNCLE SAM, COME WIPE ME, I AM DONE

      • Brenda P | March 30, 2010

        Mr. H.
        "The Commies will have the world under control only after my death."
        It sounds like maybe you are close to the end of the journey – let's hope not – however the unfortunate part is that the "commies" at least are up front and obvious – the groups you mention are already in control and the plan is already in place and due to be implemented probably in the reasonably near future – but perhaps you meant that you would try to stop or deter their plan – in that case your statement is most likely true -assuming you are labeling the other groups as commies. I really appreciate the sentiment of getting cash for your 401K but when the currency is REPLACED what good will that do you – I guess you could use it as toilet paper.

    • Douglas Gross | February 25, 2010

      Actually Tea Party members are mostly mad at the Bush Presidency for out of control spending and the fact that he started all this stimulus spending just before he left office, opening the door for Obama to continue passing stimulus bills. Most Tea Party members are dissatisfied with the Republican Party. Although the Democratic Party and its media constituents initially tried to portray the Tea Party protests and health reform protests on the Republican Party, even much of the liberal media has been forced to acknowledge that the majority of these protesters are not what you would call GOP loyalists.

    • Paul | March 15, 2010

      What an idiotic thing to say, Freethinking. did you actually read what you wrote?

    • pat | July 6, 2010

      WOW…You need to chill.

    • patriot77 | November 2, 2010

      Very well said, Freethinking. Your command of the english language is impressive. You must have finished at least the fifth grade, right? What is a "drunken sailors in a sheep clothing"??

    • bonbon | December 2, 2010

      You'll be singing a different tune when you cannot afford your utility rates because your Messiah is so heavily interested in redistributing your money to foreign nations. Seriously, when are you idiots going to wake up?

  52. Liberty | January 31, 2010

    They should all be hung for treason, or shot for sedition

    • Monte Forney | March 30, 2010

      While capital punishment is appealing it may not be enough. I propose we start manufacturing old fashioned STOCKS with the intent of placing most of our politicians and presidential appointed hacks on public display for several years. We should appease whats left of the ACLU by slopping them with gruel lest they become hungry. The big kahuna? Send him home to either Kenya or Indonesia with his guidon properly inserted and held with super glue.

  53. Tin Nyo | January 31, 2010

    How can we stop the the government from confiscating or hijacking hard working people's money that the people have saved over years and convert it into an annuity using government bonds? Is it so that they can spend on bailing out the failing Banks, the AIGs, GMs, etc, so that huge bonuses can be doled out to the top management who can in turn contribute huge sums to political parties? The government have already misused Social Security Funds as it is, to fund frivolous wars and provide aid to some foreign countries that really doesn't deserve aid. On top of it all media thrives on every news and compound the problems just to get higher ratings to sell adds, including political adds. All this is getting worse than Mr. Madorf's debacle. When will it all end? It looks like a huge conspiracy network against the hard working John Doe citizens, to reward the "wanabe" Madorfs in this country.

    • honestann | March 18, 2010

      How can we stop them?

      Answer: Never put money into retirement accounts in the first place.

      Answer: If you did put money into retirement accounts, remove all that money NOW. Either pay the penalties, or better yet avoid penalties altogether by investing your funds in foreign real-estate or some other investment that is thoroughly outside the reach of the the feds. That is not easy, but can be done. I say "foreign real estate" because it is inherently "non-divisible" – so even if they pass a law that says you must give them your retirement funds, it will almost certainly not include "non-divisible" assets like a single chunk of real-estate with a single deed. Stop being whining children and take whatever medicine is required to "deal with it", even if you must take some losses to achieve your freedom and independence from the predator powers-that-be.

      • pat | July 6, 2010

        honestann…thanks for the info. wish you could tell me more.

      • pat | July 6, 2010

        I watch the news every day; all day long but have not heard about the threat to our 401K's!

        I am vehemently opposed to anything the gangster Obama plans. I think our country is being run by crooks! Look how the DOJ has handled the black panther voter intimidation case. They cover up and lie to us and think we are too dumb to know the difference.

        What do I do with my pitiful 401K now? How can I keep it out of Obama & Co's hands?

  54. H. Craig Bradley | January 31, 2010

    Can't this website come up with better comments to post out of 85 responses than "Freethinking's) partisan rant? Sad. Get a new moderator without the political agenda.

  55. H. Craig Bradley | January 31, 2010

    Although I respect Keith Fitz-Gerald's views and commentary, it certainly would be more meaningful if someone- anyone, had bothered to look up the proposed new regulations in the Federal Register. Not comfortable just with "widespread media reports" in which none of them cited the applicable date and section of the Federal Register for reader follow-up. It is important for any reader to verify a report like this on account of the potential seriousness of the financial implications.

    Future confiscation of private pension financial assets may or may not occur, but if it looks imminent, then I reserve the option to decide which country gets MY (tax) dollars. Not sure where (country) one would move to escape, but some of us might not want to hang around. Afterall, doners decide who gets their blood. So, who cares what the majority ends up doing?

    • Jim Morris | February 11, 2010

      I have so far been unable to find anything in the federal registaer. However, There is information in the Dept of Larbor that lays out what this article talks about. There currently is a comment period set to run through May 3 of this year and identifies government agencies to submit comments to.

      I'll go back and look it up and post where it can be found. Additional information can be found in an article "OBAMA/DEMOCRATS LOOK AT TAKEOVER OF 401(K) IRA ACCOUNTS TO FINANCE GOVERNMENT" BY Jerome R Corsi – 2010 WorldNetDaily.

      I'm convinced this is for real and have contacted my state representatives. Even if its not you should contact your representatives anyway just to try to stop something like this from ever starting.

      Not much information on this exists so its important to elevate awareness. If you remember the attempted short fuse health care cramdown attempt, what stopped it at first and bought time was awareness. I've been "copying" this article and "pasting" to Microsoft word. Once there you can ad your message and email, or write a letter, to gove officials, letters to the editor, friends, relatives, your broker will be very interested, church groups etc. We need people to be talking it up.

      Hope you find this
      Jim Morris

    • Jim Morris | February 11, 2010

      To Mr Bradely's request,

      The last paragraph on page 5257 of the Federal Register ends with question 38 –
      "Would making a lifetime annuity or other lifetime income product the default form of benefit payment have an impact on employee contribution rates?" etc.

      That's all the 6 pages were – questions.

      Below is reference to the DOL site where "lifetime income Options" were discussed in question format. It states it was originally posted by the Treasury which was – questions. Clicking on the below will bring up the document or it did before I pasted it here. Below it tells where you can submit comments. I plan to do so and hope others will also. That's the only way this can be stopped.

      Originally Posted by The Treasury
      The Department of Labor and the Department of the Treasury (the "Agencies") are currently reviewing the rules under the Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) and the plan qualification rules under the Internal Revenue Code (Code) to determine whether, and, if so, how, the Agencies could or should enhance, by regulation or otherwise, the retirement security of participants in employer-sponsored retirement plans and in individual retirement arrangements (IRAs) by facilitating access to, and use of, lifetime income or other arrangements designed to provide a lifetime stream of income after retirement. The purpose of this request for information is to solicit views, suggestions and comments from plan participants, employers and other plan sponsors, plan service providers, and members of the financial community, as well as the general public, on this important issue.

      Full test of the request can be found HERE

      Comments should be sent to Include RIN 1210-AB33 in the subject line of the message.

  56. Glenn Olson | January 31, 2010

    Our money and assets are irresistable targets for Government, whether or not we have trillions of dollars of debt, which just makes it imperative to attack. Our savings. our wages, our spending and our property are at jeapardy now. Fiat currency and Government socialism is doomed to fail eventually, it's just a matter of how fast and what will be the ideocyncratic details. Even the threat of taking 401k's would create problems, due to premature withdrawals in adding to the uncertainty of the future. The threat itself will increase tax revenues due early distributions for fear of the takeover. Capitalism requires certainty, equal justice and rule of law, not arbritrary rewards, punishments, redistribution and attacks on private ownership.

  57. jeanie | January 31, 2010

    The Federal Gov't needs to keep their hands OFF our HARD EARNED 401K plans? We have done without luxuries, necessities to have some money when we retire. I can save, budget, manage my money, I've never got into situations where I overspent because I live frugally and save. I am entitled to my 401K without their stealing it. This could cause Americans to be wary of saving in 401K plans and just spend or hide the money.

  58. Loyst Streeter | January 31, 2010

    It is amazing to me that so few voters have understood that: Conservative and Republicans and/or, fiscal responsibility and Republicans, are both oxymorons. It is because of that political blindness that this Nation is facing such a grave economic situation.

    Add to that the following facts:
    1. The Democrats continue to have Wall Street insiders in the White House.
    2. The gang of five on the Supreme Court just sold out American Voters to the corporations.

    I see a very bleak future for our children and grandchildren.

  59. dave darnell | January 31, 2010

    in response to the above bilge by freethinking. maybe you need to get a brain and start doing some thinking. you come on here and start sounding off about a subject that you know absolutely nothing about !! Its the democraps in congress that have since 2007 and still are doing the spending!! with the barak insane noboma administration behind them all the way. !! also the bush administration NEVER took my or anybody elses money out of ssi to give to wall street . Instead , it is the noboma administration that has fleeced tax payers to the tune of ….TRILLIONS….. on bailouts and take overs of any industry he wishes to control!!!! The reckless spending of the noboma administration dwarfs the spending by the previous administration by a nearly 5 to 1 margin . the bush tax cuts had absolutely …..NOTHING….. to do with the deficit.!!!!! period!!!! Republicans like bush and mc cain campaigned as conservatives and governed as liberals and their policies have been soundly rejected. Now we have as president , one of the biggest con men ever to hold an office of any kind and he is fleecing the people of this nation blind right in front of their noses!!!

  60. J. Wendell | January 31, 2010

    Is there any evidence the transfer of 401 (K) or IRA funds to government-backed securities will be required, or is this an assumption at this time? Given freedom of choice to participate or not participate in a federal government plan is fine. Being forced to participate in such swindle by a fiscally and morally bankrupt government is thievery and spits in the face of freedom and the pursuit of happiness. updates on this vital subject matter is greatly appreciated.

  61. John Twelker | February 1, 2010

    In my opinion, President Obama will go down in history as the worst President this nation has ever seen. Stealing to survive is reaching epidemic proportions in my neighborhood. The equipment I use in my farming has been stolen SIX times and I've replaced it at my own expense each time because insurance companies are canceling customers who file claims against their Homeowner's policies and it's really risky to run a farm or business without Liability Insurance! We finally installed a $10,000 alarm system which has stopped the thefts from farm buildings. Now they only steal items that must remain outdoors like gate openers, etc. The really sad thing is most of the thieves around here steal for drug money, not food!

  62. Karl Rines | February 2, 2010

    A 30 year treasury bond when you're 20 is one thing, but at my age I'll be dead before it matures. Are they going to take the age of they persons money they are stealing into account? Keep your hands out of my pocket and my 401K. I'd love it if the government also gave me control over my own social security contributions.
    Also the two party system needs to go away. People always vote party lines because they can't think for themselves. Why is there only two running for president and they are always ones picked for us behind the scenes?
    One last note: The buyout package should have been distributed to those who have done the right things (save, pay their bills, not defaulted on a mortgage because they bought more than they could afford) as a reward for being a good citizen. Not rewarding thieves who will continue in their ways and bring this country to it's knees. There should not have been a buyout and the market should have been left to correct itself.

  63. Jim Malasgese | February 3, 2010

    If this president indeed comes up with a plan to take my retirement. That would be the last draw. I would support a nationwide drive to impeach this idiot. I think he has driven this country to it knees and should be ousted. Never in all my years of living have i seen such idiots running our country. We better get these left wingers out of office and have lost sight of who they work for. November should be the month we will take back our country from these left wingers.. I am totally pissed.

  64. R.Cook | February 3, 2010

    I'm 65,My 401K is already Gone.Thanks Farny Franks & Chris Dodd. There was Nothing wrong
    with Fanny May or Freddy Mac were there? You sorry excuse for Humans. I lost my house when I lost my Job of 40yrs. There went 1/3 of My retirement. There is No way I can live long enough to gain all I lost back. To the Jim Jones & Obama Cool-Aid drinkers here,(So Called Progressives.) When your Rep's in congress send the IRS to take My home because of Tax's all their going to find is a chared hulk of what was once a home. I'll give Obama and you DUMB A** Progressives the same thing you left me and Mine. NOTHING!!!!! Am I angry at a congress that even as a failure gave itself a payraise? I say it like Pat Caddell did. We " America" are made as hell and we're coming,and we're coming after you!! ( Congress ) Here, watch one of your own Progressive's Speak. Cut and past if you need to you can do that can't you. Bush was bad.But this trash lays at the Feet of Obama the Marx'st and his Saul Alinsky leanings. To the Progressives from my house to your. GO TO HELL!!!!

    See video of Medina's remarks:

  65. Jim Morris | February 11, 2010

    I answered where Mr Bradely could find info from the DOL & Treasury and it dissappeared.

    I'm not writing the whole thing again but if he or any one wants to make a comment to DOL about these forced conversions to "lifetime income annuiities" send to:
    Include "RIN 1210-AB33 in the subject line.

    • Mark Berreth | February 20, 2010

      I sent my comment and you are correct. Its time to withdraw all you monies now and take the penalty. Salvage what you can NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  66. Nance | February 11, 2010

    Every day we wake up to a new assault on our liberties and our future by this government. I first read about this 401K deal a year and a half ago, and thought it had gone away. I see that it has not. This will be the proverbial straw; people will go absolutely postal. Is this why I have been living way below my means and putting 90% of my paycheck into my 401K? So the government can get its filthy hands on my deferred pay? This is gangster government, pure and simple. I will be 59 1/2 on the 13 of February and I am cashing out my 401K. If I have to pay the taxes, so be it. At least I will have no penalty now. There seems to be no more Rule of Law. This government is going totally ad hoc. No one can count on anything anymore. This country wasn't founded this way and cannot function for long this way. I truly believe it is the goal of these progressives/socialists to completely collapse the economy, remake it in the socialist image, sans our Constitution. Anyone who has done the "right thing" and lived responsibly indeed has a bullseye on his forehead. This is absolutely terrifying and really depressing. We are, I fear, heading for a revolution. They are backing us into a corner now. There is no other way out of this.

    • Mark Berreth | February 20, 2010

      I agree 100% and have been predicting a revolution for some time–however I thought it would be after I was dead- I am afraid I was wrong and I am only 50! My 401K's and IRA are being withdrawn this week and I do have a substantial amount- Over half a million in em that the government will not be in control of ever!

    • honestann | March 18, 2010

      Yes! Congrats to one of the one-in-a-million folks who still are willing to do what it takes to protect themselves from the predators gone wild AKA governments of the USSA and its states. Yes, it hurts to lose a percentage of your money by cashing out, but put your money into gold and you'll do just fine as the US dollar (and all fiat currencies) go the way of the dinosaurs over the next 5 years or so.

  67. Mike Katz | February 11, 2010

    Wow – like it would have made a bit of difference of who was in office at this time. If we would have McCain and Sarah (the Palm Reader) Palin as the President and Vice President everything would have been fixed by now. (Sarcasm)

    Greed and Personal Gain is what got us to this point and it does not have a political party.

    Question: If Obama really has not accomplished anything of importance since coming into office. Are we technically still operating under the Bush administration policies?

  68. Gregory A. (Canadian Citizen) | February 16, 2010

    As a Canadian I have grown up in a semi socialist idealogical enviroment. I always watched the U.S.A. with admiration and pride. We are forced to pay into a government pention plan that really is just a front for the Government to steal! Don't do it!!!! You will loose everything and then be asked to pay even more to cover the shortcomings!! Just like what we have here. Our government hopes we die or move out of country before we hit retirement age. I have always believed in the American Dream… Wether you are Rep.or Dem. don't give up on what your country was founded on!!! I guess that is why all my vehicles are from GM,Chrysler,Ford. Oh yeah and my Harley Davidson. I just wish all of these bad seeds that have attempted to ruin the U.S. economy with all this fraud could be dealt with severely. But keep your market free and open! Better controls on the banking industry! You Americans always always band together to turn tough times into the best of times. P.S.- I am spending all the money I can afford too on U.S goods and vacations in the U.S.A. One last thing our regional airline Westjet flies all 737's…another fantastic product made in the U.S.A. Take care down there and don't stop dreaming big!

  69. vfh | February 23, 2010

    over my dead body

  70. Keith Thieman | February 27, 2010

    Fellow Americans..we are to blame for what is upon us. When you put your blinding trust in people to care for you and manage your assests with strict oversight and when evil hearted people are not keep at check you get what you deserve. We have seen our leaders for years go on these Sunday morning talk shows and dodge questions, misrepresent truth and throw shadows over good ideal and we eaxct no consequence upon them…we get whats coming to us. We must return as a nation to God..he is the ONLY ONE who can save us now.

    • honestann | March 18, 2010

      Speak for yourself. A few of us have been diligently and energetically explaining what has been happening for decades, and have been considered wackos by all until recently, and sadly are considered wackos by most still. In a screenplay I wrote in 1968 I coined the term USSA in a story where the country actually changed its name in the year 2025. I wonder, will it really take that long? No god will save you, I can absolutely guarantee of that, because fantasy is fantasy, not reality. Neither SantaClaus (for kids) or "god" (for adults) exists. And even if I was wrong about that, which I'm not, notice that your "god" doesn't meddle… seems he's watched StarTrek and totally adopted their prime directive (do not interfere, no matter what). BTW, one of the BIGGEST reasons american idiots let the predator-powers-that-be get beyond the point of no return is… they wait for "god" to take care of it, rather than taking responsibility for their world and doing something about it. That plus their tendency to support authoritarianism, as indicated by their explicit adoption of the most extreme form of authoritarianism conceivable, namely "god", the supposed ultimate authority.

      • Aquaflyer | March 23, 2010


        I am new to the money morning newsletter and just read some of your posts.
        I like your way of thinking and was wandering if you may share some of your financial ideas with me?

        Jeff K
        Tampa, FL

  71. John Otradovec | March 22, 2010

    This is the most corrupt govt. that has ever been in control of this US.These communists are generating one lie after another.They claim they are saving all this money by removing 500 billion from Medicare,taking 21% out of payments to physicians,making young people buy medical insurance they don't want and then stuffing their pockets with money which will eventually become useless.They also perpetuate this lie that Bush wanted to put all S.S. I into Wall Street. He only stated he wanted to put 3% of S.S.I into Wall Street. These communists never learned how to compute in percentages.

  72. Robert Leigh | April 16, 2010

    What a great idea. People have been fooled into believing that their only investment options are in the Wall Street Casinos. Since I've started my own business, I've begun researching alternative investments for my money. Why would I want to give some corporation my money to spend how ever they choose. Wall Street is fighting regulation now because they are a bunch of crooks who want to continue their business as usual. Corporatism is fascism. People need new alternatives to putting their retirement money into big executive bonuses. Bonuses are made of money stolen from investors.

  73. Matt P | July 12, 2010

    I have to say that I voted for GW Bush the first term and watched as he messed up everything he put his hands on. We invaded a country on false pretenses (Iraq) and have plundered untold fortunes to no end. I can only imagine that it was done as a means to get their hands on and control the flow of oil. I watched as Bush ruined relations with several former friendly nations and pretty much turned the world against us. I watched as the government deregulated everything under the sun so the people in control could profit from it and swindle the investers. I voted for Obama and I do not see anything change except the face of the head crook. We are so far in debt and not one polotician has the balls to say stop spending. Sure many do say things like that but they really mean stop spending except on things that will make me money or get reelected. Obama's scheme to have health care pay for itself is a farse from the get go. I watched as they change health care and it's worse than it was before. The only plans I see being talked about are plans to spend massive amounts of money that we do not have to bailout corperate america from its bad investment binge.

    It seems to me that no matter what party is in office we are in for more of the same. I have voted all my life and tried to read the fine print before doing so. All I get is lies lies and more lies.

    I have had enough! Our great country is being manipulated to hell in a handbag so corperate top brass can profit. If you think your going to take my hard earned 401K to futher this stinking BS your mistaken.

  74. Deborah | August 14, 2010

    The people who constantly recite the "Blame Bush for all" mantra obviously only just started watching TV in the past 18 months. They need to go back and study Woodrow Wilson and FDR' policy where all this BIG government spending started. And Jimmy Carter was the one of the worst president's (other than Clinton) that we've had since.. (not including present).

    FYI, Freethinking you really make yourself sound ignorant.

  75. dd | September 1, 2010

    frm dd

  76. Jacqueline | October 25, 2010

    Deborah: Clinton was a better president than Reagan, it is due to Reaganomics and his foreign policies and NAFTA that so many of our jobs have gone to CHINA and OTHER PLACES IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND ASIA. If anyone here sounds ignorant it is you. Why don't you go read a little bit. The blame is on both sides of the road, not just on one.

  77. James | January 9, 2011

    We need to make sure that pensons dont become means tested. In other words, when you apply for your pensions, these arent provided on the basis of what you need, rather than what you have purchased. Next, we need to be sure that immigrants (we are about to be swamped by Asian benefit cheats, just look at the UK) only draw out as much as they contribute. If you look at Western cultures around the world, these two issues are dominating the pension debate.

  78. Ray | February 4, 2011

    There are no "Free Markets". Markets are controlled by a few to suit their own means.
    90% of the wealth in this country is owned by 2% of the population. Where is the free in this?
    People really need to do some research.

  79. MIke M. | July 13, 2011

    I firmly believe now is the time for the American people to have themselves a "FULL SCALE REVOLT" against our elected establishment! I earned my savings and retirement and no government is going to take it from me! I will protect my property and money to the fullest extent of my abilities!

    We need to go in and remove ALL the elected folks and replace them with level-headed, God Fearing people who have some common sense!

  80. NICOLE | August 9, 2011


  81. Bryan | February 15, 2012

    There shouldn’t even be 401K or Roth IRAs. This is the Government just giving away money. Employers should be generating enough jobs and pay to allow people to support their own retirement.

  82. Jeannine Fitzgerald | April 17, 2012

    I would like some constructive comments on next step ideas. Enough with the blame! We are all in this together. We are the middle. The extreme right and left isn't where most people are!

  83. Chuck U. Farley | April 23, 2012

    The Government thought process could be to the tune that this report is thrown out, all of these people will get scared and then proceed to cash in their 401K therefore having to pay high taxes on these withdrawals. When this is done, the people that did not pull their 401K, the government will actually follow through and take the rest. Then they will target our savings accounts, checking accounts, and our safe deposit boxes. Maybe not in that order but it is coming. Call me conspiracy theorist or whatever you want. I just watch and listen and make an informed call and watch it come to fruition. Soon we will be working for free or standing in bread and toilet paper. Start buying guns, gold, and silver to keep afloat, that is what rich people are doing, stood and watched a guy buy thousands of dollars of silver coins while listening to why he was buying it. Make up you own mind.

  84. Clarence Brown | February 27, 2013

    The ones that believe this is a good idea are a real surprize to me. And they will be real suprized when this is all said and done. The media has done a great job of educating (brain washing) the public in the last fifty years. They just don't know. Our last election was a prime example of INFORMATION WITHOUT COMPREHENSION and kNOWLEDGE WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING. Ignorance Not Stupidity is todays problem with society.
    America is not bad, it is not evil. Socialist want to destroy the Liberity and freedoms of the American way. This is the only game in town (the world). Travel over seas and study foriegn countries and their governments. See how other citizens are treated before you condem this nation. It won't be long before this nation is just like the rest and that is dangerous.

  85. John Durango | November 4, 2015

    Cash out your 401 NOW! TODAY!

  86. Brian Davila | October 2, 2016

    Great Article. suggestions , I am thankful for the analysis , Does anyone know where I could obtain a blank IRS 5471 copy to work with ?

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